[00:13]
These things get awarded because they do some level of good for the world. So if that’s the promise, I want to believe that that’s the intention and that we’re going to see that product in some way do something good and be available to people. As far as more you’re talking about a meaningful category, you’re saving lives. It’s something that’s so so important.

[00:36]
You’re thinking about the future when you’re doing it and every piece to you that excites you feels like a stepping stone for something else that you couldn’t even think about right now, but you’re going to see in the next couple of years. People in can in the world need to see more of this and more brave ideas, brave clients and I think this is the festival where you can all bring it together.

[01:00]
Hi, welcome to this special edition of our podcast presented by MM+M and campaign and partnership with real chemistry. Today’s episode is Cannesplaining behind the jury room door with two former lion jurors. Hi, I’m Frank Mazzola, managing founder of 21 Grams and also global chief creative officer of Real Chemistry. Hi, I’m Alok Gadcar, the co-founder at Tuesday Communications in Dubai. I’m also the CEO and CCO.

[01:30]
Welcome in gentlemen. I’m really excited for this conversation. I’ve spoken twice now with Franklin Williams, the jury president for Pharma.

[01:42]
And so now after getting his perspective throughout the week, I’m now excited to get two people who are in the room with him to pick out some really amazing pieces of work that one big here in pharma category. So, you know, before we get into the work, I want to know what it’s like to be in that room because I think a lot of people have been in juries across a lot of different awards, but Ken is kind of a different beast.

[02:11]
And so, uh Frank will start with you. Tell me what it’s like to be in that room evaluating all of this great work. I think that you feel the pressure of everything that you’ve ever thought Ken represents you’re thinking about in that room. And there is a lot more there’s a lot more discussion. There’s a lot a lot more intensity. There’s a lot more passion behind the things that people love or don’t feel are are worthy.

[02:37]
And the idea that you’re just discussing everything to the letter of every piece of whatever somebody wrote or included in their entry ends up getting covered on the pieces that go far enough. So it’s a really intense experience. It’s a lot of work in a good way. So can Lion is one of the best, the biggest, the most difficult to win, right? And getting on as jury at can is a great opportunity.

[03:03]
Of course, what happens in those jury rooms can sometimes drain you out of because of the conversations you’re having, there’s so much of I would say this farmer jury we had a lot of fun, but otherwise it can get pretty pretty intense. And yeah, I mean it’s so much to see, so much to learn, you’re seeing work from around the world. It’s a fantastic opportunity, Jameson.

[03:26]
Yeah, and so and the lead up to that jury room How did the two of you prepare for what was a marathon session? I’m curious how long the two of you were were stuck in that room on top of that, but I’m curious how you prepared for that session. We were in the jury room from, I don’t know, would you say 9:30 a.m. to maybe 10 10:30 p.m. something along those lines. Yes.

[03:54]
And then for me beforehand, I really wanted to take as much of the bias out of it as possible. So, I really tried not to look at anything that won at one show. I didn’t really look at any of the Clio Health winners. I kind of wanted to go in clean. The first part that you do is is sort of the the online judging. And um I had a notebook where I would keep pretty detailed notes on things that I that I loved. And then I brought that into the jury room and we talk about a piece.

[04:22]
I’d always kind of refer back and see what I was feeling, when I first saw it. Yeah. So, for me, you know, obviously for all of us judging actually starts in your hometown. So, for me it started in Dubai. We are seeing about close to 300 entries. We make notes out of it. We We make notes out of what kind of discussions would lead in on a particular piece of entry. Does it even Is it even worth a short list etc. etc.

[04:47]
And then when you get into that room, you obviously need to have great conversations supporting a piece or, you know, if you don’t feel good about a particular piece of creative, you need to know know about Just like Frank, I used to maintain my own small pocket diary where I’ve made notes and I carried it to the jury room. That was really useful. Just on another note, Jameson, I think while we are doing the inside jury room conversation.

[05:14]
I think you need to do a separate podcast for Frank to do outside the jury room because the team that Frank manages made sure that he had enough short list there. I think Frank what about 8 to 10 short list. Some crazy amount of short list. So I remember on first day while we were all going at it. Frank was literally half of that time Frank was outside the jury room because he couldn’t vote for any of that work and couldn’t listen to any of the conversations. So yeah, it was fun.

[05:44]
Yeah, I bet. And Frank, tell me a little bit about that experience and some of the pieces of the work that you couldn’t listen to it on. I bet you were dying to hear what that conversation was like evaluating work that you personally worked on. Yeah, it’s so oddly anxiety ridden, but also at the same time it’s it’s a huge honor to be able to leave the room in those situations.

[06:09]
And there was actually something that happened in the beginning when I got to the room and the people I can kind of pulled me out because you really have no sense of what’s on the long list, the thing that the things that you discuss in the jury room until you get there. And they said, “Listen, you have a lot of work here.” Actually, I thought I was getting in trouble. I was like, “Oh, this isn’t good. If they’re pulling me in the room, what’s going on?” They said, you know, you have a lot of work on the long list. You’re going to be out of the room a lot. And a lot of your work is going to naturally get killed.

[06:39]
And we just want to make sure that you know that going in and you feel you feel good about the experience and the process and you know I’m all like yeah sure absolutely but inside um just you know full of emotion like we we our pieces are are here the pieces that we work so hard on made it to the room and are going to be talked about and um it was you know it’s a cool feeling doesn’t get any better than that.

[07:06]
Yeah I bet that is hard to not read into the time you spent out there whereas So you know, if one piece, you know, you’re out there for they go by quickly, the next one you’re outside for a while, I bet it’s probably nerve-racking to sit there, okay, well, well I was only home for five minutes and I this time I’m out for 15 and I’m wondering what they’re discussing in there. Yeah, you just you pace, I try to get away from the door as much as possible, so I don’t hear anything at all.

[07:34]
And uh you know, a lot of that time I’m thinking the people I can must must think that I’m I’m I’m casing this place or something cuz I’m just paces around aimlessly, just walking back and forth. But yeah, you almost try to walk it off and you are you are thinking about all those things that that might be discussed. Yeah. And ultimately, you did come away with one really big winner of uh Frederick’s Back, one gold, which is, you know, the second highest honor you can win in the category.

[08:02]
And uh you know, when I spoke to Franklin Williams, the jury chair, I mean, he had such incredible things to say. You know, he took us inside that discussion in the room a little bit and was like, “Hey, you know, this This is one of the few pieces of work that, especially in Pharma, where the jury was like, is there more? Can I watch more? And so, uh I walk and walk us through a little bit from your perspective, hearing the discussions about work that Frank did. What were those discussions like? What do they cover?

[08:31]
So, so I’ll tell you what. There were a couple of pieces, there were actually a lot of pieces, Frank. I don’t remember each one of them because I think they were eight or 10. I remember the makeover. Uh, I Yeah. definitely remember the COVID ball. I think that was one one of my favorites. I rated it pretty high right from the beginning. I’ll tell you James and you know what in 21 we all got really irritated with all the COVID advertising that we saw that the moment you saw COVID again you didn’t want to sort of see it.

[09:00]
But here was a piece in 2025 after four long years you suddenly have something show up on the screen and the craft was so beautiful. You want to have a look at it and you then say, “Oh, fine.” I mean, there you need to look at this this devil which still exists within us and we need to take precautions uh around it.

[09:21]
So, uh apart from that, I think apart from what Frank’s pieces were, I think Frederick’s back was clearly right in the beginning, right from the right from the start was something that the jury liked in the room. Uh, you know, it was comedy. It was something that uh farmer should have more often. Uh, it’s not always do and gloom, right? It’s not about all we’re is dying and you know surviving.

[09:46]
So from that point of view, I think Frederick’s back uh ticked a lot of boxes for us. Yeah. And you know I I walked the work with a few creatives. I think it was Thursday and healthcare creatives, a few of them highlighted that piece and I mean they were all just kind of stunned that you convinced a client to go dark humor.

[10:07]
Uh Frank, tell me a little bit about selling that work because I think it’s one thing to have it an end product that is so bold and different, but the big step a lot of the times is just selling that idea. So, tell me what it was like talking with that client and getting them on board with such a a a different idea than you’re used to seeing in pharma. Yeah. Well, I I feel like the trick in pharma or half of the trick and it’s everywhere in advertising is you have a great idea.

[10:34]
How do you set it up in a way and make sure that the client understands it’s really, really strategically relevant. It is going to be outside of your comfort zone, but it’s something that’s going to land with the audience. And the genesis of this one was actually somebody with Freightix a taxi came to speak to the agency one day. And it was a general talk. We were working on Biogen and we had that brand.

[10:55]
And then they came in a wheelchair and kind of work themselves up to the podium and they were one of the the funniest people that I’ve ever talked to the agency and that happened. That person was hilarious and then we started meeting more and more people and there was this common thread of this group is just funny in the way that they deal with what would be you know what most people would look at and say that’s a very sad disease. They didn’t want to see more sadness.

[11:21]
They wanted to have a little bit more joy and be able to to laugh with you. So they actually were the influence of how we how we got to that place. And I think when you’re talking to your clients and these clients and specifically our client Sunny was actually there when we got the gold. It takes a great marketer too and somebody that’s as certain about the work as you are who can go into a regulatory room and talk about this is the idea.

[11:50]
We’re not doing anything out of bounds. It’s a different tone. but it actually gets the information across in a really entertaining way and people will watch it more. So that process is really, I think it starts with the audience for us always. And also comedy is one of those things that this isn’t the first piece that we did in the humor space.

[12:11]
We’ve been working at it for probably seven years since the agency started has always been we try not to have a house style, but it’s if we did have one category of things that we felt like we were good at, humor would be one of them. So that helps also to talk about other pieces you did, what the outcome was and that there’s no big backlash that the audience ultimately loves it if you do it in the right way. Yeah, that’s great.

[12:36]
And let’s hop back into the jury room now because I’m curious how the both of you were evaluating work. Is there a pretty set criteria across the group of what you’re evaluating? Does everybody to your point of having a house deal? Does everybody have their own kind of personal style of what you value the most? And a lot we can we can start with you on that one. Yeah, sure. So, you know, different jury rooms do it different way. It all depends how you’re led by the president in our case it was Franklin.

[13:05]
And, you know, from the beginning we said, “Something that breaks the mundane, something that’s exceptional pushes the category of pharma.” Is what we would look at awarding a lion. It needs to stand out and it needs to stand out well. Craft, of course, needs to be impeccable. When we award It Frederick’s back. It got awarded because it was a fun piece. It was comedy. It was dark humor. It wasn’t seen before.

[13:32]
We want more and more farmer clients to do that kind of work going forward. And so we decided that that’s what we want to push out. It’s the same with the grope rewinner which was Make Love Last. You know, a piece so high in craft. Something that was that has a great taboo in a place like China. And you know, you’re seeing it yet you’re not seeing anything, and it made a huge statement.

[13:58]
So I think that was a sort of criteria that we had pulled on the side. And when we were giving our words or when we were putting points to it, we would sort of have this at the back of our minds. I would say from a jury perspective too, one thing that I really loved about Alok is very outspoken, always kind of articulated what is that thing that we’re looking for. And in cases would bring the jury back of well, let’s look at the category.

[14:23]
Does this really work the best here, or we haven’t talked about something that we should be talking about, and this is why it’s kind of a breakthrough piece. And you do look for you’re thinking about the future when you’re doing it. And every piece to you that excites you feels like a stepping stone for something else that you couldn’t even think about right now, but you’re going to see in the next couple of years. So that’s, I think, always in the back of your mind also. Yeah. And I love that you bring up Make Love Lasts.

[14:52]
I think that was such an interesting grand winner because I think a lot of times when you see the winners, you’re like, oh that’s an obvious winner, but that one you had to understand how it was made, the situation was made because the first time I watched it was like I don’t quite understand it and then when I heard Franklin explain the craft and how this came together and the obstacles I was you start to realize like oh this was absolutely brilliant how they did this at. So that was a a great one to to see.

[15:18]
You know I’m curious as for the two of you looking at all the pieces of work that you saw, were there some notable trends that popped up if you, you know, craft and humor were a couple of things that were identified to me last week, but is there more to that or other things that you too saw that really jumped out with you and Frank I’ll let you start this one. Yeah, I mean I definitely humor. So, there was a lot and a lot of different pieces. I think, as a whole, humor definitely came through. Craft being looked at as more meaningful craft.

[15:46]
So, how does this add to the idea or give you a different sense of emotion than you would have normally had, had it not been made this way. And then also pharma to me, like big clients that you’ve heard of in the past had done some really great work. And some of it will probably only be talked about in those agencies and maybe if you you stumble upon work that didn’t shortlist even, but the body of work that was coming out of of the industry just made you feel good about where it was going.

[16:16]
So actually, I thought that was a trend in itself. I second that. I think entertainment was definitely the underlying this year. Of course, there was a lot of education done through a lot of entries, so I would call it entertainment entertainment sort of a thing. Uh, and yeah, apart from that, we saw a lot of pieces with great craft. A lot of work. You know, I think there was one with the clay clay mission.

[16:41]
There was one which which I think Frank your team had done with the makeover of using lots of makeup equipment and sort of making a piece of creative. So there was a lot of craft James in this year that we sort of observed in Pharma. Yeah. Yeah, scratch out too was a great one. Yes, scratch out, yes, of course.

[16:59]
I was literally about to bring him scratch out as you know the one another one of the great pieces of craft that stood out to me of the fact that they actually stood there and scratch out individual piece of the film to to create that, which is something you don’t get, you don’t understand is happening when you watch the film, and then when you hear how it was made, you’re like, “Oh my god, that that’s just absolutely brilliant.” Yeah. Havos Links is is one of those agencies that they find really interesting ways to do things for, again, for clients that you’ve heard of all the time.

[17:29]
I wanted to call them out too because they showed up in a couple of different ways, but that was definitely a piece we loved and I personally loved also. Yeah. So, I mean, it sounds like you We both have a great experience. Is there anything that you would change about the process? Is there anything that can should be thinking about when it comes to how the jury rooms are run and the overall experience of being a judge on one of these? I mean, Ken just does it beautifully year on year. I think this is my second time at Ken in 2018 I had judged health.

[17:56]
One of the things that I felt or probably the jury felt this year was missing is samples of prototypes or equipments that you’ve done in the innovation category. Sometimes it just gets very difficult for the jury to visualize. Oh, did this happen? And what what did this look like? And was it for real? I mean, if it if it is done and if it’s if it’s up and running, it it has great merit to sort of see it in the jury room. You entered it in multiple categories.

[18:25]
If it’s has to win a gold or a grope pre, it’s a great piece of creative and it needs to be seen. We do feel that because of the lack of some of these being entered and seen, uh they probably didn’t go up higher in terms of metals. Yeah. And I think too and I’m I’m pretty outspoken on this part. And in the jury room too, I I think you know in pharma to me non-regulated is kind of kind of an oxymoron.

[18:53]
You know almost everything that I could think of if it’s literal pharma is is regulated and there are are pieces that are non-regulated that I think should absolutely happen but to me they belong in in health and wellness because we’re always going to have those conversations sensations of regulated pieces, they’re going through a lot of different steps and you’re hoping that by the end you come out with something great.

[19:15]
And if you do that something great, that should be looked at in that way, but when you have that piece of work versus a piece where, you know, like most parts of advertising, you can do anything in the world based on the brief that you have so long as it’s strategically tied to what you’re trying to do. It’s hard. You kind of To me, it’s it’s apples and oranges.

[19:36]
So, I mean, I would love of in the future, and again, I’m in the minority for it to see that category, you know, moved out into more of a health and wellness, the health and wellness side because I do think it fits there, and there’s always going to be that that debate. And similar things about the the products. You know, if it’s a product, it’s not a prototype and we can’t hold it, then I want to understand, well, how does somebody buy it if it exists? I want to see it out in the world.

[20:04]
It can’t just live on a on a digital board and and we have to take everybody’s word for it because any agency can do that and these things get awarded because they do some level of good for the world. So if that’s the promise, I want to believe that that’s the intention and that we’re going to see that product in some way do something good and be available to people.

[20:27]
Yeah, that’s kind of a probably more of a a me thing, but I would love to look at pharma for pharma and without any kind of loopholes. Yeah. And Now that you’ve you’ve gone through the the jury side of this, what is the advice for anybody who wants to enter work into can to create the best entry possible? Were there certain things that you that two you just felt were constantly missing from entries that you would have loved to see. And Frank, I’ll let you see start here.

[20:57]
I think most people take a lot of care, you know, and when they when they create their submissions, obviously the case study always goes a a long way and people look at work differently. I usually start with the case study, so I feel like I understand the whole story. Um then I’ll get probably more into the digital board. So I will I will look at the board and kind of read because that’s your summary.

[21:19]
And if I’m really really loving something or I feel like I love something, but it’s just, you know, I need something else, then in that first round I’ll really get into the the details of the write-up. But I think people should know that everything that they do and submit matters. So, the write-up matters. All of those little pieces will be will be looked at with a fine tooth comb in a good way because we you know how much people are spending on entries and you know how much care and hours people put into them.

[21:49]
So, nothing gets missed. But again, Alo has done this a couple of times and I feel like you’re you’re probably the pro on, you know, what people should be doing. So in terms of observation, right? See, all network companies and people who are sort of winning and shortlisted, they know what needs to be entered. My heart goes out to agency folks who have just done one or two entries from some country or the other. And they don’t even come to the long list.

[22:19]
They’ve gone out right in the beginning. Entries are expensive, right? Entries are expensive and for the smaller set up agencies who have made entries which which look like PDF files and you know PowerPoint presentations with a with the song in the background or a tune that sort of plays. I think they genuinely need to look into what kind of entries come up at can. It’s the most difficult to win. Why are you wasting that part?

[22:47]
You know, do not do not even present it and send it to can if you’ve not crafted it well. And of course I mean case films the idea of course proceeds everything do a great case firm shoot it well execute it well put the right production in and a lot of lethaji somehow I have seen in you know when you when a lot of people enter it in multiple categories the write ups are almost the same.

[23:10]
So if you have a different category that you’ve chosen versus I mean if it’s ambient to sort of integrated why is it all written in the same tone of voice so why is it written exactly the same way? So someone’s obviously been not checking these. The write-ups really help, Jameson, I think uh when you’re talking the metal and you’re talking the bronze becoming a silver and a silver becoming a gold, that’s where it it becomes really important. Craft becomes very, very important.

[23:38]
Yeah, and that’s such a great point because we just judged our own awards here at MM&M and I found that it’s clearly pieces of work are submitted across three, four, five categories with the same write-up. and it’s manding that if you put something in the print category and then you don’t give any details about print, you only learn about the TV part of it. It’s like well you’re not setting yourself up to play. Exactly. Exactly.

[24:02]
It’s such a waste of time and then the jury at some point sort of gives up and says why is this piece showing up again and again and you know you just get irritated with it. Yeah, for sure. And outside the jury room there’s so much going on in Cannes. Uh yet we don’t see a lot of pharma people in Cannes. We don’t see a lot lot of healthcare agencies in Can, yet. They are there. I met with some of them. But for the most part, this is not an industry event that they were coming to and drove. So, I would love to hear from both of you.

[24:32]
What is that winning argument for why a pharma brand or healthcare agency who maybe is still sitting out can needs to be there next year? I mean, I guess I would think of, you know, pharma, a lot of times we think of it as something completely separate. And to me, it’s medicine, it’s one of the most innovative products in the world. And our job is to make sure that people are aware of it and that the right people are getting it, which will ultimately help, you know, the the brand meet their financial goals also.

[25:01]
If you’re a marketer, you want to be at the place in the world where people are entering the best work that’s moving the market that has the most impact. Because whatever you’re spending on a piece, you’re either going to spend it on a mediocre piece that people can miss or you’re going to spend it on something great that you’re getting great ROI out of. And also it’s not just, you know, an awards show. Awards shows just a tiny piece of it.

[25:25]
The festival itself, the talks that happen there, you can’t help but go to as many of those as you can and come out with something that you never maybe knew before, but it’s going to be on your mind for the next year. And I just think that our industry needs to think of itself as what it’s going to be. It’s going to be one of the most creative categories, I think, in advertising. It’s going to have to be for the industry to do well. And market are behind that.

[25:50]
You can’t do it without your partners on the client side and then being just as passionate as you are about any of these things. So, as a learning experience and just really thinking about the that discipline is marketing of marketing. There’s no better place in the world that you can go for a week and it’s like, you know, a master class and what you’re going to be thinking about for the next couple of years. So, I would love to see many, many more clients going.

[26:18]
So, just before we started judging, right? We had Philip Thomas walk into the room and he said, you know, years ago, there was work done in health and pharma and people went back to their agencies saying this kind of work will never win at can and that’s when the health and pharma lines sort of were established. You’ve seen the the work over the last five, six, seven years and you’ve seen the way health care as a category and pharma as a category has really grown. It’s almost like a festival within a festival, J. B.

[26:48]
Simpson. And you know the the amount and body of work that you get to see across categories and disciplines is just outstanding. You’re now as pharma you’re talking about a meaningful category, you’re saving lives. It’s something that’s so so important for lifestyle.

[27:06]
And with all the brave work that we are seeing across Pharma with Frederick’s back, Make Love Last, there were there was glowing relief, the why reader, some of these innovative ideas, I think people in can in the world need to see more of this and more brave ideas, brave clients and I think this is the festival where you can all bring it together. That’s how you need to push it. Well, said. That is a perfect to Abnon, very well said.

[27:34]
Thank you so much to Frank Mazzola and Alo Gadkar, CCO Real Chem and CCO and CEO of Tuesday Communications, respectively. Thank you so much for joining us on this latest episode of Can Splaining. Thank you guys very much. Thank you, Frank. Thank you, Jameson. Pleasure to be here.